What I’m struggling to understand is why Renault have set things up so that every charge takes the car to 100% if to do so is such a bad thing? This is particularly the case when they own the battery and are therefore liable for it to continue to do the job that it was intended for.
By contrast I note that the LEAF prefers to only rapid charge to 80%. No such setup with the Zoe. Personally, intend to use my Zoe in the way that it was intended. When î plug it in, it charges to 100%, unless I’m on a rapid. I only charge to 95-98% then because I’ve got places I need to be and don’t want to wait another 10 mins. Even the manual says something like ‘you don’t have to wait until it’s completely flat before recharging’
I also trust Renault in this (call me a fool, perhaps) they are absolutely determined that the best business model is to lease the batteries – so convinced are they that they won’t let us but them. So would they really risk everything on this one?
For me I intend to continue to drive my Zoe like any other car. As to what happens after 72 months? Who knows. I don’t think Renault have decided yet, and that’s fine. I don’t keep any car for ever either (no matter how much I like it).

But how will your local Renault dealer repair a battery pack? They won’t because they don’t have all the kit needed to do high voltage work safely. What they can do is take out the pack (matter of a few screws and it will drop out) and put in a “new one”. New one is a relative term as I guess it is possible that this other pack will be a refurbished one.

I am going to guess that no Renault dealer in the UK and Ireland is able to open a battery pack, replace individual cells and put it back in the car. Renault has a separate battery montage section in the factory with specially trained staff and equipment to do this. So the pack will have to go to France to be repaired. I think it is possible you get a new pack while they repair your old one.

Are we certain of this? No, because it has never happened yet that I know of. I know there have been cases of battery packs being replaced under warranty in a Leaf. I have not seen or heard of any Zoe needing this (yet).

Why not just say you don’t know and stop guessing

… because assuming the worst and taking defensive steps about it will mean you end up prepared if that worst does happen, and happier still if it ends up better than that.

Assuming the best outcome means you will surely end up disappointed!

It is no guess to say that LMO begin degrading rapidly after 1,000 full charges or so. There is guesswork in knowing what additional measures they [may have] put in place for their EV battery chemistries, but if they changed standard industry formulations to get longer life then they (Renault/Nissan) also don’t really know how these batteries will last into the future. Accelerated testing is their only means of determining life and failure modes, but accelerated testing can never truly replicate real life over several years.

If you want to push your batteries to their max charge, and then rely on Renault’s good will to test and replace your battery as soon as you think it drops to 75%, go for it! I foresee a backlash against EVs and Renault/Nissan if it is found significant volumes of their LMO batteries hit their typical ‘knee point’ and suffer rapidly plummeting capacities. Maybe they have worked some magic on these batteries to make them last longer? As you say, we don’t really know yet, but nor does Renault/Nissan!

I believe they will refurbish modules, and I’ll say exactly why they would do that – if they replace battery packs for new they set a precedent for the future, and people will say ‘but you’ve given these other people new packs, I want a new pack‘, and before they know it, at some point in the future when there are millions of EVs on the road and hundreds of thousands of warranty claims that have built up, they have a hundred thousand battery packs with 70% good modules in them that no-one wants because everyone wants a ‘new’ pack.

You are presuming you will get a replacement. I think you will get a few replaced modules to bring you back to 80%.

Indeed, you can read the contract that way. We will see, how this is handled. But I think it is much easier for Renault to change the battery (maybe a refurbished one) than to repair it.

Regards
Umbi

“The quicker your battery ages to the 75% warranty point, the longer you will be charging to 75%!”
No, because I get the replacement.

You are presuming you will get a replacement. I think you will get a few replaced modules to bring you back to 80%.

The quicker your battery ages to the 75% warranty point, the longer you will be charging to 75%!

No, because I get the replacement.

It is not ‘if’ you will charge to 75%, it is only ‘when’.

Yes, but. 🙂

An 80% charge on the Zoe Dashboard means some 70% of the whole available battery capacity (25,8 kWh of the full battery of which 22 kWh are available for driving). This does, in my opinion, not prevent any aging compared to the 100% Zoe dashboard charge which means some 90% of the whole battery capacity.

So your battery will reach the 75% in the same timeframe as mine, maybe a bit later. But I could use the car as intended. Time is an ageing factor for Li-Ion-Batteies as well as you mentioned in a post before. You can’t fight that.

Correct me if I’m wrong. Example (don’t take it too seriously, please):
You propose to drink only water, eat only bread and practice 20 km running every day to stay healthy for a long time
I propose to eat and drink what I like, do some excercise when I desire. I wil day three years earlier than you but I had all the fun. 🙂

Concerning Rental agreements: in the German version is only a limit of 200 000 km (124 300 mls), no time limit. There is a written right to extend the rental agreement as long as you use the ca (VI 2.)

Regards
Umbi

But if that means that they’ve got to replace it again next year because the capacity has dropped below the threshold again, that would be a very false economy. It’s got to be very pricey to do a battery pack swap; I doubt that any dealers are equipped to do the job.

From the battery rental agreement…

7.3 We shall provide you with a Battery that has sufficient charging capacity for the term of this Hire Agreement and any extension to the term. The charging threshold is 75% of the Batteryís original capacity.
7.4 You may, at your own expense, instruct a ìZE After-Sales Serviceî centre to carry out a battery charging diagnostic to test the capacity of the Battery.

There is word that “at your own expense” could be as high as £600 to prove to Renault that your battery has fallen below the 75% threshold and then (in my experience) you will enter into a big fight with Renault to get the battery swapped-out.

Another concerning statement is….

4.2.1 No amendment may extend the Maximum Contractual Mileage beyond 120,000 miles.
4.2.2 No amendment may extend the Period of Hire beyond 72 months.

When your car is 72months old or has covered 120,000 miles Renault bless-em can knock at your door and demand the return of the battery leaving you with a large inert garden ornament on the drive.

There is NOTHING to suggest that they will extend the rental agreement beyond these stated perimeters in the agreement. 🙁

I think you are missing my point Donald ie. we are talking about caring for a battery of an EV and with that comes different ideas from people on how to do that …no less valid that yours…even with your expansive knowledge about Li-battery. You say it is ‘simple’ as if there is only one way ie. yours …there isn’t…

Perhaps through all my word detail, I have made a meal of not clarifying my own point. It is simple:- either you charge for what you need, or you charge 100% even if you don’t need it. That’s all I am trying to say. All charging ages the batter, the latter ages it unnecessarily.

Do you want to charge to 75% for 10 years? I don’t.

No! Which is exactly why I would take steps to avoid unnecessary ageing!

The quicker your battery ages to the 75% warranty point, the longer you will be charging to 75%! It is not ‘if’ you will charge to 75%, it is only ‘when’. If you are happy with the 75% state-of-health warranty, why not get used to that much available battery from the start, and if you aren’t happy charging to only 75% when you get your new battery, then best avoid ageing the battery unnecessarily.